No, it sounds nothing like the "mark of the beast"

Marvel is well known for borrowing from the Bible for their characters, plots, 
and so on.

-sarge

national id card that you can't buy or sell without...

sounds like the mark of the beast talked about in revelation.

back in the late 80's or early 90's Marvel Comics had a series that was 
called "What If...?"

one of the one-shot storylines dealt with Captain America coming out of 
suspended animation in current times, finding out that the United States was 
no longer the FREE country he remembered.

the National ID Card was mandatory, you could not work without it, you could 
not buy without it, you could not sell without it, etc.

that is the very type of nation that this old soldier (me) would rail against 
and work to dismantle.

-sarge

spelling ... Sorry I meant "easier to prove as an alien vs. a citizen".  

The real problem with all of this nonsense (like TSA, etc), is that kids 
growing up today will accept this as "normal".  

It also won't matter that other countries are much more free than USA, since 
most Americans don't travel abroad - but also the Guvmint can (and is doing 
so) just make it much harder to travel abroad.  That way they can maintain the 
belief by Americans that they live in the most free and most wonderful country 
on Earth.  

Restricting travel abroad not only stops folks from seeing other places and 
comparing them to their own - but also prevents them from asking questions 
like "How come you can fly from France to Switzerland without having to take 
your shoes off?  Aren't there terrible groups out there who want to attack and 
destroy France?  If not, why not?"  Those types of questions simply can't be 
allowed.

Neil - in Florida it is a crime called "vagrancy" to be in public without 
proper identification - yes, that means walking to the 7-11.  That means (as 
Fish said) your driver's license (or state id).  Just because it's not 
enforced every 5 minutes, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Your point about it being easier to prove your "allowed" than an alien is (I 
believe) the whole point of this exercise.  It is simply another approach (way 
to skin a cat) they are trying to impose the long desired National ID Card.  

I wonder what would happen if some "freedom loving" (a bad word these days) 
Mayor of some small town had street signs put up on all the major roads (even 
interstates if any) that enter his/her town INFORMING drivers (/walkers) 
something like ...

"Welcome to Small Town, Indiana
 Under State Law you MUST possess 
 Government issued Identification
 to proceed beyond this point.
 The Sheriff's Office will enforce
 this and all Laws vigorously."

* * *

. . . I do appologise Kort157, it does seem as if your thread took a wrong 
turn.  I did look at your links and seriously, I was torn.  It seems like a 
good idea, but with all the hacking and dishonest activities going on all over 
the net; well I'm quite hesitant to give anyone access like that.

I believe those running the grid are fine, but then there's the disgruntled 
employee and Corp. spys and just a whole slew of others that would figure some 
way to break in and use this for evil purposes . . . 
/adjusts her foil hat ;)

OMG! Don't even get me started on that farce of a ripoff bill to put money for 
the friends and partners of Obama, passed off to the American public as Health 
Care reform.  To put it in the words of our HR Department, "Would you rather 
we increase the medical care deduction on your paycheck, or have your Co-pays 
increased . . . and oh btw, your medical insurance benefit will be added to 
your W2s."

. . . freaking grrrrrrrr

I hate it when I'm forced down a road I do NOT WANT TO TAKE, by a bunch of 
illerate misguided idiots.  Sorry . . . not meaning to offend anyone, but I 
have to vent some of this anger or you just might see SD blow off the world 
map; and it won't be an earthquake O...o

sarge, we live in a different world today. Back in the late 1960's, our school 
system was 55% air force. The airforce base was home to the B-58 thermonuclear 
bomber, only one of two bases.

There were no 23 yo deabeat... I mean to tell you that since spot promotions, 
etc. were being sought after, etc. if little johnny in school caused a problem, 
the school called the parents (major and mrs.  or Lt. Col and mrs...) and 
problem was resolved about 99% of the time. If it wasn't next call was made to 
the community affairs and it WAS resolved. 

As a business owner, if my dad got a bad check from a base person, usually one 
phone call was all it took. If that person didn't make good in a timely manner, 
the second phone call to community affairs offie did make sure it got 
resolved...

My next door neighbors were all base connected kids, and their homes were ran 
like the military.

as i understand it: what kicks in, in 2012, is the taxes...i mean required 
taxpayer donations... 
then the program kicks in in 2014.

and get this...for military members who put their lives on the line, TriCare 
(the military insurance handler) has already declared that the presidential 
decree and the law do not apply to them, so they will not cover your children 
to age 26, as the law requires.

does that mean that if a soldier/sailor/airman/marine does not purchase 
separate insurance for their deadbeat 23-year-old-dope-smokin'-college-dropout 
that there is a chance the servicemember will go to jail?

-sarge

T - It's phased, I think kiddies are covered for pre-existing sometime this 
summer.  But I believe Bob has to wait until 2012 for his to be accepted by 
insurance corps by law - he may get lucky and find an insurance corp that will 
accept him before the legal deadline though.

Basically the insurance corps have a few more years to screw us before the 
laws kick in to make it more difficult for them to.  Bit like that Credit 
Protection Racket that kicked in last February - that was legislated about a 
year before hand - and we all know how magnanimous the credit card corps and 
banks were with those interest rates and CC limits on the run up to Feb 2010.

2014?  I thought it kicked in in 2012.

I think Lieberman (I-CT) is already for Pres in 2012. The Insurance Industry of
CT is probably going to back him (my speculation) and try to repeal the
HealthCare legislation before it kicks in in 2014--since he's such an
ineffective Senator he'll some how be able to do something as President, right? :)

So I guess we should start thinking about "Bob for President 2020"??

Neil, we had the 18 month thing during the previous cycle, now we're at the 36
month cycle and next time it'll be 48 month cycle.

sarge said: you are right. you have to identify yourself but you dont have to 
provide an 
picture id, except when operating a motor vehicle.


And when flying on a commercial airliner...

kort157:

sorry for the hijacking.  it does not happen often here, and i hope that you 
will continue to use this site for a source of information and contribute to 
us as well.

it's not my site, but i assure you there are some good people here and there 
is much knowledge to draw on when needed.

-sarge

kort157:

sorry for the hijacking.  it does not happen often here, and i hope that you 
will continue to use this site for a source of information and contribute to 
us as well.

it's not my site, but i assure you there are some good people here and there 
is much knowledge to draw on when needed.

-sarge

TFisher:

you are right. you have to identify yourself but you dont have to provide an 
picture id, except when operating a motor vehicle.

we need to get through people's heads that there is only one race on this 
planet, and that is the HUMAN race.

it is time to assess the needs of our neighbors to the south and help them set 
up a system of medical, police, education and other resources to include 
helping build their economic infrastucture.  by doing so, we give them less 
reason to need to sneak across the border trying to make a better life for 
their families and themselves, by providing incentives for them to want to 
remain in their homelands.

of course we need immigration. just like the "game of life" (the computer 
model not the one with the spinner) a closed society will continue to insulate 
itself and finally die out because of the lack of interaction with others.

as a police academy graduate my motto is "To Protect and Serve".

as a soldier, my creed is:

I am an American Soldier.
I am a Warrior and a member of a team.
I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat. 
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my
  warrior tasks and drills.
I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.
I am an expert and I am a professional.
I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the
  United States of America in close combat.
I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.
I am an American Soldier.

No where in my nor my comrade's creed does it say "LEGAL CITIZENS OF THE 
UNITED STATES".

i know there is personal prejudice in my own ranks, but they know to overcome 
that sentiment or i will have their ass.

we need to get rid of the career politicians and put sensible heads in there.  
we dont need to be the far-right-wing police state, but we dont need to be the 
far-left-wing socialist state either.  we need to be the United States of 
America and set the example for the world to follow.

we told iraq they had to hurry up and write a constitution.  

we told afghanistan they had to hurry up and write a constitution.

and in true american "better than thou" fashion we told the palestinan states 
that they had to hold free elections and write a constitution....well they did 
and guess what, they elected to power a government (hammas) that they u.s. is 
not exactly friendly with and we saw where our demands can blow up in our face 
and possibly come back to haunt us.

we are bound by our treaty of demand with palestine to support them, even when 
they are at war (declared or not) with one of our oldest allies, israel.

our politicians need to quit making such demands and realize that after the 
end of the war of independence (war of insurrection, if you're a brit) that it 
took our elected officials, some of the most learned men in the country a 
decade to write and ratify our own constitution.

i dont think you can just go out to MS Office and look for a template for 
constitutions....yet.

-sarge

Edman, 
Most Americans don't know enough about SSNs.  I didn't have one until I was 16 
(I got it when I got my drivers license) and neither of my kids have one.  I 
just regestered my daughter for school this past Tuesday and they freaked out 
when I told them that she didn't have a SSN and if she did I wouldn't give them 
that information. 

Obama is changing this though.  My insurance company sent a letter telling me 
that they will not be covered at the end of the year if I don't provide SSNs. 
That is BS!

You don't need ANY ID to walk down the streets (at least here in the South).  
And the police have no right to bother you in your own yard without cause.  If 
I am asked for ID all I am required to provide is my name and date of birth.  
That is all any homeless person would be able to provide also.

If things are different in some states then think about this...if I visit that 
state and I decide to walk down the street without ID then does that state law 
apply to me?  I think not.  I live in GA and spend most of my time driving in 
TN.  Both states have a seatbelt law, but the laws are different.  In GA trucks 
are "exempt" (or use to be until recently).  I got 2 tickets in TN for driving 
my Ford F-150 without a seatbelt.  Both times I fought it in court and had the 
charges dismissed because I am a GA resident and was following GA state law.  

Of course posted laws (speed limits) are different, but states that pass their 
own silly laws for the puropse of controlling the people that live in the state 
or as a means to raise more money cannot expect visitors to know about all 
those silly laws that have NOTHING to do with protecting other people (me not 
carrying an ID doesn't harm ANYONE else).

C'Mon Fish.... you of all people I would expect a little more rational 
opinion....  SSN card from day 1.... and are you seriously comparing the 60' & 
70's to today ? Even on the streets of NYC back then, the Beat cops knew who 
you were as a kid, every cop in the town I grew up in new my whole family. 
once again we fall back to descretion and experience for anyone, kid or adult, 
to be stopped and "talked" to.... and if you don't have some id, kid or adult, 
you WILL BE (as the Neilster put it) "detained" until they know who you are.
And as far as walking out in "my" yard (?)... sure you can walk out in your 
yard, you can work in the yard... blah blah blah... but what's to say, you 
don't live there ? You know the home owners aren't home, you "act" like you 
are working in the yard, or cleaning up, but all along you could be staking 
the place out. Let's say a cop drives by and you look like you are cleaning 
up, or doing yard work, but really all in all you're not, or the cop knows the 
home owners, you aren't them.... so who are you ? Possibly someone being paid 
to work in the yard, not necessarily from a company, so no company owned 
vans/trucks, or someone stalking the house. Or maybe you just moved in ??? Who 
knows....
Are you seriously trying to say that just because you are on your own property 
the law doesn't have a right to question you ? So goes for walking down the 
street. A gang of kids messing around, are they playing, or getting ready to 
paint some graphetti, or something worse.
Don't get me wrong.... the cops have it rough.... but cops are people too... 
they have their good and bad days... they are not machines.
You'd be amazed what they can get away with... if they really want to.

Sarge 
I am not sure about something you said...if you are stopped on the streets, for 
NO REASON, and asked to identify yourself I don't think you have to. But if you 
choose to, you don't need an ID to identify yourself.  At some point this 
unwanted and undeserved interruption can be called harassment, or at least an 
abuse of power.  I respect any police officer that does their job honestly and 
leaves people alone that are leaving other people alone.
  

EdMan 
No, you need NOTHING to walk out into your yard or down the streets. How old 
were you before you got any form of ID?  What was that ID, probably a driver's 
license because you wanted to walk, I mean drive, down the street.  Why were 
you able to walk the streets as a boy without an ID?  Because there is nothing 
to prohibit that at any age.

Bob,

Sorry, I must have misunderstood something.
So it is acceptable in this forum to hijack a thread.
I wasn't aware of that.

Like the UK system:
1) An election is required within 6 weeks of the dissolution of parliament.
2) A candidate must pay a deposit to be listed on the ballot - which may be 
returned to them if they achieve more than x% of the vote cast in their 
constituency.
3) Campaigns are publicly funded.
4) Eveyone is issued a voting card - with the place that they must cast their 
ballot.
5) On voting day you present your voting card at your polling station (the 
card is retained by the polling officials) and cast your ballot.
6) Results are tallied and winning politician declared.
7) Next week the politicians take their seats and elect the Prime Minister.
8) The PM goes to the queen and asks her permission to form a government.

- absentee ballots are available for those who will not be residing in their 
constituency on polling day - this includes business travellers who know ahead 
of time, those resident in other countries who have maintained registration to 
vote in their home constituency, etc.

- no campaigning outside of the 6 week election period.


Unlike the US system where we have an 18 month campaign prior to the election.

Fish, I never said anything about the 'state line' this was in the middle of
Texas but parallel to the southern U.S. border. Interstate 10. Which, after
turning south in Phoenix from L.A. continues parallel from Tucson to probably
Houston. 

The problem is Blue-hair Iowans. Politicians pander to them to get that
important first primary Win. So the folks that basically do what this country
doesn't need (grow feed corn) are controlling the World, basically. They get
scared by person of type X, Y or Z, and everyone suffers: 

 A) I have to take off my shoes at the airport.
   B) They have to hire more TSA agents (afer firing those that "don't look like
me".
     C) All those salaries and pensions need to be paid for.
       D) We have to borrow the money from China to pay the TSA  budget.
         E) We do deeper into debt
           F) The Blue-haired Iowans complain about taxes (even though they've
gone down).
            G) Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck seem reasonable to the Iowans.
              H) We end up with another Bush-tard in the whitehouse and congress
                I) A soviet-style cold-war-like mentality is seen in DC.
                  J) More money for the Military
                   K) Jump to step E and repeat.

So what is the solution?
Simple, and to me, reasonable...

1) No TV advertising for elections.
2) No corporate contributions to political campaigns
3) 90-day campaign cycle--nation-wide.
4) License News programs and not allow non-news shows to use the word "news" in
their titles.

(Okay, 4 is really just a pipe dream of mine. <g>)

kort157,

This is what happens when we digress. :)

agreed that there is not any law on the books (yet) that require any person in 
the united states to carry identification on them, with the exception of 
operating a motor vehicle or traveling by plane or train or bus. 

i like it that way and never want to see that change.

however, if you are asked, even without having committed and infraction, for 
your state i.d. by a police officer, you are required to identify yourself. 
you may not have your picture i.d. with you, but you ARE in the database as 
well as your picture, so you will be checked on. this goes for joggers too, 
who leave i.d.s at home when they jog.

if however, you are suspected of having committed a crime, you are required to 
prove who you are and in the state of arizona, you are then subject to proving 
your right to be in this country.  but only after being detained for a 
violation of the law.  this can include broken tail-lights, the smoking like 
your fumagatin' the neighborhood for mosquitoes tailpipes or other crime, 
including misdemeanors.

the fact that everybody is getting up in arms about this is confuses me, 
because what arizona has done is produce a state law that mirrors the current 
fedreral law. it is just that the federal law is not enforced.

i agree we need to overhaul the system to allow for more legalized 
immigration, but the fact is, those who sneak into this country ilegally, know 
that what they are doing is breaking the law and are therefore committing 
their first crime on united states soil.

amnesty should not be granted, because it penalizes those who have been 
working with the system to become citizens by allowing upstart law-breakers to 
be given the same rights as those who have been abiding by the law.

as a die-hard republican (as if nobody could tell) i agree that the previous 
administration did much to create a larger government with greater power, 
restricting the rights of the people.

lastly (for now) i wrote a manual for the Army "Brigade Combat Tactics for the 
Stryker Brigade". in there, i tell a true story of my SF group. we would go 
out in small groups, with larger elements of the 4th infantry brigade and see 
what we could see, hear what we could hear and attempt to win the hearts and 
minds of the iraqi people.

the night before our mission we were briefing the grunts on what would happen 
and who would be in charge (me of course) of operations. after the chit-chat 
two of the officers (both captains) were talking about a local family that 
they wanted to visit, because they both spoke spanish and the iraqi family 
spoke fluent spanish.

i stretched the meeting, found out more and we went in to speak with the 
family as part of the good-will mission. when the beat-around-the-bush 
conversatin turned to their language skills, it became obvious that they had 
no ill will against the u.s. and did not mean harm, but they were making plans 
to get to brazil, make their way to mexico and sneak into the u.s. so they 
could have a better life.

but the fact is that there are those who would do us harm who have these 
language skills.  for example, with the u.s. aiding columbia in their war 
against the FARC, the FARC could infiltrate into the u.s. and cause havoc by 
doing things like setting off car bombs, etc.  far fetched, but it does happen.

-sarge

The requirement of a US citizen to carry ID is generally a states issue.  
Outside of opperating licensed machinery - automobile, truck, aircraft, etc 
where the license can be used to confirm an ID check (though aircraft license 
must be backed up with a photo ID - mine does not have a photo so I must 
supply both the aircraft license and photo ID (drivers license) - I believe 
new pilots licenses do carry a photo).

The requirements concerning a pedestrian (or car passenger) is that, if 
lawfully detained (ask the cop if you may leave, and if he says no, consider 
yourself detained) you must provide the cop with your name and home address 
(verbal provision is technically sufficient) which he may then confirm.  If he 
doubts your statement then he may arrest you until ID is confirmed.  Obviously 
if you have your drivers license on you, then that can be used to immediately 
determine your ID and thus remove any need the officer may believe he has to 
arrest you.

Bob, you said:

Did Abe really say "under God" in the Gettysburg address or was that added in
the 1950s like it was to "the pledge" and U.S. currency?


I pulled out my copy of the envelope that abe wrote it on back of, and yep it 
says under God.

Bob,
Historian William E. Barton argues that:

"Every stenographic report, good, bad and indifferent, says 'that the nation 
shall, under God, have a new birth of freedom.' There was no common source 
from which all the reporters could have obtained those words but from 
Lincoln's own lips at the time of delivery. It will not do to say that 
[Secretary of War] Stanton suggested those words after Lincoln's return to 
Washington, for the words were telegraphed by at least three reporters on the 
afternoon of the delivery." 

Fish & Neilster... I do believe that you need to have some form of id even 
just walking the streets. Even if it is just a state id card. There are still 
alot of communities out there that have vegrancy laws... so if you can't 
provide information of who you are and where you live, you have the potential 
of getting a free room & board.

Right, a naturalized citizen has no legal requirement to carry proof of 
residency.  My wife only has to have her driver's license, and then only if she 
is driving.

Driving a vehicle requires papers, which a cop may ask to see if you're 
stopped - typically Drivers License (to prove who you are), insurance and 
ownership.  Don't have them on you, you may get a ride in his cop car, or you 
may be ticketted to produce them at a later time.

As a pedestrian there is no requirement to carry any identification on you - 
though if lawfully asked by a cop you must identify yourself, not having a 
drivers license is technically not grounds for arrest though.

As an alien you must also carry your green card (or other proof of legal 
residency) at all times, it's already in the law.  Though while I have been 
stopped by the US constabulary a number of times and asked for my drivers 
license, they never once requested proof of residency (though they were 
entitled to ask and I would have been required to present them my Green Card).

Rather amusingly, now that I am a naturalized citizen, I have no legal 
requirement to carry proof of residency, nor do I have any easy to carry 
document.  Though anyone talking to me easily spots from my accent that I am 
not a local.  So it is easier for a legal alien to prove that they are allowed 
to be here, than it is for a native or naturalized person.


And I've been a "Tax payer" for almost 11 years now.... but only 6 months as 
an "American People".... wasn't there that whole uprising thing about taxation 
without representation??  I should talk to my congressman!

Excuse me !

What has this discussion to do with World Community Grid ?

Sarge,
Here is what worries me...as a natural born American (or not), if I WALK down 
to the corner convenience store because I decide I want a Snicker's ice cream 
before going to bed, and I just grab some cash and get stopped by some young 
cocky jerk of a police officer (there are plenty of them out there!) then what 
will he do?  I know of no law that requires me to have ANY form of ID in this 
case, and I OFTEN leave home without my wallet if I am going jogging or if we 
are going for a walk.  

I am also concerned about how my privacy can be invaded without even leaving my 
home under the Patriot Act if I use my phone!  

"border patrol" on a state line?  Never heard of such a thing here in the US.  

The real problem isn't the person that the American people vote for, it's the 
people who run for office in MOST cases.  In other words, if everyone voted for 
the person they DIDN'T want instead we would still have a dumb politician going 
to Washington DC.  We can't really blame ourselves for voted between Dumb and 
Dumber.  ...After all, anyone with half a brain would not want to have anything 
to do with the circus in DC.

Thanks for the pep-talk Bob!

;-)

Sarge, I mostly agree with your words--especially the part about getting some
ice cream before bed. Mmmm...

I think there are two problems, both caused by "The American People" as we are
now referred to since the politicians realized that calling us "tax payers"
seemed to be a bit off-putting and not inclusive.

Problem 1: The American People elect really dumb people into office but expect
them to do well. They do this because they tend to vote for people in their
tribe. Whether it be that he's white, or she's black, or he's another fake
christian, or a Hispanic, or he was in the military or whatever. For some reason
80% of the voters think people in their tribes make good leaders. And then never
check up on them. This country is near the bottom in Education in the world, so
odds are, nearly everyone running for office is dumb.

Problem 2: With weak-minded government officials and employees (the dumb hire
the dumber) we get laws that seem more like pretentious adolescence behavior
than they do laws. "Zero tolerance for X, Y or Z" is a great example of
incompetent and lazy government (or school boards).

During post-911 or what I'll call the Bush-era, the U.S. hired a lot of
"security" people. Such as police, homeland, FBI, clandestine service, etc. Odds
are, we lowered the standards and got a lot of people who are incompetent and of
questionable values in that group.

So here's the sad part (as if that isn't already sad enough) we now have a
government of incompetent people, with even more incompetent people enforcing
laws for that government. 

As a result, we've gone from a government of the people, by the people, for the
people to a country of the government by the government for the government.

So, yes, as it turns out, the politicians were right, we really are just "tax
payers" here. 

9/11 did change everything, it destroyed the America ideal. Not by the act
itself, but by the incompetent way we allowed our government to respond to it.
And the way we allow them to continue to respond to it to this day. Maybe not in
your heart, or your block or your town, but for most of the country it seems to
me it has.

My "better half" was born and raised in Moscow and we go there and visit about
every 2 or 3 years and they do occasional ask to see your papers--but almost
never if your a tourist. I walked up to the KGB headquarters in downtown Moscow
and took a picture of the building (it has some great sculptures on it) and a
guard happen to be coming outside for another reason and said "stop, don't do
that" and was very nice about it. So I complied.

The following day we walked by the U.S. Embassy and from across the street I
took a picture of the Embassy door with the cool U.S. emblem on it. A guard
comes running up to me and says that I have to delete that photo, and
he has to check the camera for other photos or he's going to take the camera.
This is the U.S. Embassy! The bottom line is that this country is run by idiots
who are so scared that they are going to loose power, they'll do anything to
protect it, from its own citizens.

Did Abe really say "under God" in the Gettysburg address or was that added in
the 1950s like it was to "the pledge" and U.S. currency?

neil, I hope you realize I spelled it that way on purpose.

It was a border patrol "tollbooth" type thing. Everyone was stopped. See you
can't racial profile so everybody gets screwed, er, I mean stopped and checked.

Hey Carol, I have that thing. The Planetary Society sent me a copy of it back
before it was launched. Gosh... I wonder where that thing is--probably in my
1960s and 1970s folder of Space (aka Nasa) photos.

Don't tase me bro!

And Sarge, I definitely agree with you that having the majority does not 
necessarily make something right.

my wife and i are graduates of the police academy, from tucson, az.  while i 
am not practicing in arizona, i do have to put in my nickles worth (2 cents 
plus inflation)

i am for immigration, but on a limited basis where one has proven their desire 
to be here by making the proper application to do so.  i do believe the 
application system needs to be overhauled to cut much of the red tape, but it 
does need to be in place to protect the citizens and legal immigrants to our 
country.

in az, you cannot stop at the 7/11 and round up the day laborers and ask them 
for their identification papers. you CAN ask for proof of citizenship and/or 
papers to show the legal right to be in this country.

as natural born americans we are subject to this all the time.  we have to 
produce a license or other state issued i.d. when stopped for speeding, are 
involved in an accident or are a witness to an accident.

i agree with this because it reinforces in people the need to maintain auto 
insurance to pay my bills when they rear-end my vehicle, etc.

i do not think that the police should be able to stand on the street corner 
and request at random, your papers. too many other countries did that and 
problems arose from them.

as for legal immigrants and visa-workers carrying papers: get over it.  they 
are not being told to carry bulk load of paperwork to prove their right to 
remain here, but rather an i.d. card, much like a drivers license or state 
i.d. card. that's it.  that's all they have to have to prove their right to be 
here.

as a natural born american, if i drive up to the corner convenience store 
because i decide i want a snicker's ice cream before going to bed, and i just 
grab the keys and change off my dresser and get pulled over for speeding or a 
tail-light being out, and dont have my driver's license, proof of insurance, 
what have you, i'm getting a ticket, or at least a summons to produce those 
documents at the court house by a certain date.

we are not talking about a stalinist or nazi regime where the cop has an ak-47 
or mp-40 bearing down on you demanding papers.  just a proof of legal 
residency.

az does also allow for the arrest and prosecution of employers and landlords 
who KNOWINGLY employ or rent to KNOWN illegal immigrants.

and as for the 70% or better, is that not democracy in action?  it may be, but 
some of us here on the site remember 1950-1960 era alabama and other states 
where the majority ruled, but ethically were way, way, way off.

what if 80% of americans who vote, voted that if you are over 30, it is time 
for you to die by suicide or police interaction?  it worked for Logan, until 
it was his turn to run, that is.

"if the majority of the populace ever comes to believe that it is right to do 
harm to and subjugate the minority, it is time to do away with the 
majority."  - Sarge

-Sarge

>> ... much the same way that tasers are being abused.

I didn't know that anybody was abusing tasers.  What did a taser ever do to 
them?

Let's wait for Bob to answer my previous question about why he was stopped in 
TX...was it simply to check his papers as he made it sound or for something 
else that he may or may not want to share with us. 

While perhaps it's true that no body has been stopped without cause YET, I 
think it's silly that the police should now be required to jam up Homeland 
Security on even a few of these "legitimate reasons".  If every state passed 
such a law and every police officer in this country contacted someone at 
Homeland Security just once a day I wonder how much this would bog them down, 
how much overhead it would add? 
 
The problem is often not how the law is written, it's how it might be 
interpreted by police officers and over time abused, much the same way that 
tasers are being abused.  Call it misinformation if you want, but trust 
me...this law will be misused and abused.

No Basticar,
That is correct, They can't stop anyone to check their papers but I think what 
Fish was saying, is that the "Kangaroo Courts" out on the streets called our 
Police force... can do whatever they want, and it is your word against theirs. 
This is coming from a guy who spent too many a night with nice shiny silver 
bracelets that I didn't ask for. 
One time in court I accused the officer of lying (which he was), the judge's 
response.... "Why would this fine officer lie to me about what happened 
here".... And that is no JOKE when I was convicted and fined out the <*bleep*>-
ster!!!!

>>  ...The whole issue in Arizona is that now they think they have the right 
to stop anyone just to check for "papers".

Before we get started on another 100 posts for and against the new Arizona 
law, let's have a little fact checking.  Here is a link to a good article 
about the subject:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columns/Byron-York/A-
carefully-crafted-immigration-law-in-Arizona-92136104.html#ixzz0nBSHAOfZ

Here is an excerpt from the article: "... The law requires police to check 
with federal authorities on a person's immigration status, if officers have 
stopped that person for some legitimate reason and come to suspect that he or 
she might be in the U.S. illegally."

The key phrase in there is "stopped that person for some legitimate reason".  
So they can't just stop anybody to check for "papers".

You may not be for the law even with that provision in place, which is fine, 
but at least let's debate the true facts.

Oh . . . and TFisher, please quit spreading misinformation like that; it's 
simply not true.  The legal authorities in AZ cannot stop anyone "just" to 
check papers.

Well, there is this:

http://www.orbit.zkm.de/?q=node/255

When I'm traveling, granted I've not taken to "space" yet, but I usually stop 
to resupply and hmmmm, rest.  Sometimes just to enjoy the scenery; and when 
I'm hungry, I find much more appetizing things to asage my hunger than the 
locals . . . but then, perhaps that's just me ;)

Fish,
Yea... they may use that as a reason to stop anyone, but if you ain't a 
citizen, and not on a visa, and don't speak the common language, then they 
should be dealt with, as in "go back to the border, get the appropriate 
paperwork to reside here, pass the test ot become a citizen, and come on back 
in, you are welcome in this country as long as you abide by the LWAS !" 
Pay your taxes just like everyone else, and stop feeding off the nipple called 
America. And maybe things will turn around a bit. 
When 70% of the state supports what Az. wants to do, isn't that democracy ? 
The winning votes, everyone has a chance to voice their opinions, but the 
deciding factor goes to the winning vote. Hell... that's how we put the idiots 
in office. Moron with the most votes wins (well in some cases, unless they 
call for a recount). Well when you have a decision that the people agree with, 
and is the right choice because as a nation we are imploding, then by all 
means, implement it and support it.

"that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that 
government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from 
the earth"

Big Abe - Gettysburg Address

"If aliens visit us, the outcome would be much as when Columbus landed in 
America, which didn't turn out well for the Native Americans. . . . We only 
have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into 
something we wouldn't want to meet." 

--Astrophysicist Stephen Hawking

Well didn't Stephen Hawking suggest that there was only 2 reasons for aliens 
to come visit us:
1) To bomb us back into the amoeba age
2) Lunch - where we're on the menu!!

zagu, raug, maught!  (do you see that?)

utzxy, er ratgu maught! dobur pfnmwo fnokwl gfjiow!
(yes, i see that! it must be the beacon to fire the photon cannon at, for 
practice.)

well, so much for sending morris code into space with a flashlight.  might 
very well be lasing ourselves as a target.

-sarge

Won't sending Morris Code into space proove that there is no intelligent life 
here?!  :)

Of course sending Morse Code probably wouldn't result in any understanding 
between us and the aliens, since the aliens probably wouldn't understand it - 
we'd be assuming that:
a) they understand the english alphabet
b) can figure out what sequence of dots and dashes maps to what letter of the 
alphabet
c) can read the resulting english

Bob, 
What papers?  I guess you mean driver's license.  

Why were you stopped, were you speeding or something?  The whole issue in 
Arizona is that now they think they have the right to stop anyone just to check 
for "papers".

neil,

Unless you get pulled over in Arizona or Texas.

FYI, I was stopped on I-10 in south Texas on my way from Arizona to Chicago and
had my papers checked. This has been going on for a few years, so what's the
issue with Arizona?

Anyway, that SETI thing is just a tremendous waste of time IMHO. 
We might as well be using Flashlights to send Morris Code into space as
listening for structured radio waves. Its like native americans looking for
smoke signals in space--what a waste of time and money. Oh well, its privately
funded.

Shazbot! Of coarse, you're correct Tfisher. My excuse? Well, I'm not from 
around here . . .

Wrong planet Ralphamiller, that would be Ork.

Na-Nu Na-Nu Neil.

I used to be an alien - but I had my antenae removed and no longer swear 
fealty to Commander Gorgon of the planet Zog.  Now I am a naturalized american 
citizen.  :)

LOL . . . just lol . . . for now :p

with some of the rpg/iii and even rpg/iv fixed format code, i beleive there 
are aliens amongst us, and that poor coding techniques are actually 
their "secret" language as they plan to take over the earth.

even apple has this.  as jay leno said about the film "independence 
day": "there's a scene where they upload a virus from the laptop to the alien 
mothership....Finally!!!! an operating system that is compatible with Apple!"

-sarge

so you are saying in your rpg program in addition to the SETLL and SETGE, there 
is the SETI command to look for aliens in your i?

SETI (Search for extraterrestrial life)has a similar program. they use the 
idle computers to link with phased array radars around the world to study the 
skies and any object that may not be a the same arc that it was earlier.

of course, if you like to open your system up, i'm certain that there are a 
few servers out there that will be more than happy to use your idle pc to 
store their kiddie porn and stolen bank accounts...which you will not know 
about until Chris Hansen...from Dateline NBC or the Po-Po make their 
obligatory visit.

-sarge

Do you know the World Community Grid that is sponsored by IBM ?

Its mission is to create the world's largest public computing grid to tackle 
projects that benefit humanity.
So your computers idle time can be used for example for searching for cures for 
aids, cancer and other diseases. All results will be in the public domain and 
made public to the global research community.


An article about it can be found here:
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/145/look-whos-curing-cancer.html

And a link to the grid:
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/